Eventually people find out that widgets can, and therefore inevitably will, intercept right clicks and make it really hard to get at the applet's own contextual actions. Right, Will?
There's nothing Plasma can really do about that. We could try and intercept every right click and show a menu, but what if a widget actually uses right clicks for something different in a defensible use case? It would also be a bit hacky to make that work perfectly, though doable.
So, we have a situation where controlling right clicks is a problem. On the desktop, we offer widget handles and the desktop toolbox so we can guarantee levels of service regardless of what plugins do.
On the panel, we also use the toolbox button to a similar end. If you click on a panel's toolbox and bring up the configuration interface, you can then right click on any applet ... and get the applet's own context menu!
So don't hunt for the one pixel in between taskbar buttons or around the system tray, just click the cashew and then right click the applet. Voila.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
34 comments:
Thanks for the hint, and could you help me out with another question as well: Is there a way to disable mouse wheel actions on the plasma workspace background and on the Taskmanager? I normally use the touchpad on my laptop and it's quite disturbing to have the desktop (or the application windows) switch away under me while I'm moving the mouse and just happen to come too close to the border with my finger.
It happens especially frequently with the MSI U100 netbook, because the touchpad is sooo tiny...
>So, we have a situation where controlling
>right clicks is a problem.
So you create problems and then invent solutions to fix them. Maybe is better just not to create problems?
@Matthias Welwarsky: currently we don't have settings for this, no. but i think this would make sense as a global plasma setting.
@vedranf: the problem is inherent to the concept of independent component based interfaces that try to limit the amount of interaction mechanism policy. it's not a problem we created, it's a property of the design approach.
the design approach has numerous additional benefits that far outweigh the minor annoyances, such as this one. most widgets "get it right" with context menus, but there will be edge cases.
but hey, if you're a brilliant problem solver, feel free to offer a general alternative approach that avoids this particular issue. got anything?
It would be nice if there were a simple, uniform, ideally obvious way of getting to the context menu. hmmm I'll think on it.
@Aaron
Design approach in which you try to create a single interface for regular desktop users and touchscreen users is destined to fall. Majority (desktop users with keyboard and mouse) will have to have stuff (cashews, widget handles) on their desktops which they don't use nor need instead of having an option to switch between two interfaces.
See analogy... you are trying to create a car that always have snow chains on its tires ignoring the fact that most users don't need them and would like them to be optional.
@vedranf: this has *nothing* to do with touchscreens. none. whatsoever. at all. dead parrots, etc.
read my first reply to you again, repeat as necessary.
@ Aaron
Of course it has something to do with touchscreens. When *you* do something with plasma you do it with touchscreens in mind, that's why we have all those cashews.
Solution: If widget intercept (stupid, but ok) right click, force showing it with keyboard-modifier+right click. But that doesn't come to your mind. Why? Because you have touchscreens in you mind and they don't have keyboard.
but what if a widget needs this modfier right click combination for some reason?
Remember the old Kicker? There where also handels for those kicker plugins.
And touchscreens have no right click anyway ^^
ok, now I understand why you will always need the cashew.
However, why not have other alternatives for when the cashew is disabled?
Like having a krunner option to control plasma (add widget, lock/unlock, even restart plasma, etc)? So in system settings or whatever when you explicitly select "hide desktop toolbox" it warns that if you still need those options hit Alt+F2 for the krunner thing.
(good job on 4.2, btw)
@vendranf: I'm not sure that the "problem" has anything to do with Aaron having a touchscreen device in mind.
I actually like the idea of having these controls (chashews and stuff) . They call attention to a functionality. I like your "modifier_key+right_click" aproach, though.
@Aaron: Thanks for all the hard work. I am using KDE 4.2 as my main DE at work and home and I am having a wonderful time with it.
Now, back to the issue. As much as vendranf's solution would be a good one, I would also vote for one that didn't require two hands to be used. I'm thinking little cashews at the bottom-right corner of the widgets (on hover)...
What's your input?
stupid idea (my approach to usability is a rather balistic one :-) ), but what about a special mode for the input/mouse pointer?
E.g. you can switch to configure mode (via cashew or shortcut), probably change the cursor to provide optical feedback (attach a little wrench to it, etc.).
If the user clicks on a plasma-desktop element, it's configuration menu is opened. No idea though whether "configuration" mode should be exited automatically after using it once, or after clicking an element without a configuration option or after returning to "normal mode" by shortcut/cashew/etc.
Possible problems:
- Overloading the cashew menu
- ability of the user to discover this may be limited
- what shall we do with multiple input pointers?
Hm, thinking about it, how stupid is this idea really?
scrap my previous comment, I was only thinking in the narrow context-menu-is-configuration-menu box.
@vedranf: "When *you* do something with plasma you do it with touchscreens in mind, that's why we have all those cashews."
please stop trying to tell me what i'm thinking, because you really have no clue about that. no, i'm not thinking about touchscreens when i'm working on these specific issues. the cashew is not there just because of touchscreen usage.
"Solution: If widget intercept (stupid, but ok) right click, force showing it with keyboard-modifier+right click."
and if the widget is already using modifier + right click? same problem
all over again.
in fact, the taskbar already uses modifier+click for some of its advanced functionality.
now ... worse yet, modifier + right click is insanely hidden behaviour. you need to coordinate keyboard and mouse movement (bad for accessibility) and learn about this magic gesture (bad for learnability).
with the toolbox (cashew) based system the user only has to learn that these little buttons have "special powers" and can rely on them to always get to configuration relate things.
"But that doesn't come to your mind. Why? Because you have touchscreens in you mind and they don't have keyboard."
no, it doesn't come to mind because it's a bad idea that doesn't actually solve the problem.
@mootchie: a plasma runner is waiting on a plasma d-bus interface. we'll be getting a d-bus interface for 4.3.
@setec: "but what about a special mode for the input/mouse pointer?"
that is indeed what the panel toolbox (cashew) does. left click is used for moving items, however; right click pops the menu up so that any action offered is available.
but the general idea is there, yes. :)
@aseigo
See, I know it couldn't be me thinking of something along this lines :-)
I was mainly pondering about triggering the "special mode" for example via shortcut, mouse gestures, krunners, globally.
It would be great to access the plasma elements via krunner, because I prefer to keep my hands on the keyboard, especially when working on the road with my laptop.
Thanks for all the hard work
Well, I found this trick myself. Actualy, it came naturaly that if right-clicking don't allow me to configure the plasmoid, I need to switch the panel to configure mode.
Is it that I get the way of plasma ?
@ Aaron
>please stop trying to tell...
I know, because I read what you write and see results of you work.
> and if the widget is already using modifier
> + right click?
And if widget is using ctrl+alt+backspace? Some combinations are simply reserved. It's was always like this, so this is a non-issue.
> now ... worse yet, modifier + right click is
> insanely hidden behaviour. you need to
> coordinate keyboard and mouse
> movement (bad for accessibility) and
> learn about this magic gesture (bad for
> learnability).
COME ON!!! Plasma has bad accessibility! We are using modifier + mouse button for manipulating windows with kwin for years and no one has any problems with it!! You are fixing imagined problems.
People learn. Those who do not learn are stupid people. If you make an interface for stupid people, universe will just create even more stupid people. Again a non-issue.
> with the toolbox (cashew) based system
> the user only has to learn that these little
> buttons have "special powers" and can
> rely on them to always get to
> configuration relate things.
And what about millions of old KDE users who discovered keyboard, they should switch to some other DE?
> no, it doesn't come to mind because it's
> a bad idea that doesn't actually solve the
> problem
It's funny. You are so stubborn :-) It's not bad idea. Using modifiers is unix way of doing stuff, kwin's way of doing stuff. I switched from windows to kde because of it and now you are bringing windows way to kde. That's sad.
Why you have to be such a dictator? Why not ask on kde-devel list what do the others think about this?
@ vedranf
>And if widget is using ctrl+alt+backspace? Some combinations are simply reserved. It's was always like this, so this is a non-issue.
**SOME** combinations are simply reserved. How many combinations do you want to reserve? I don't think accessing configuration options (something you will want... once?) needs ultra-fast key combination. You will probably have forgotten the combination the next time you will need it.
> COME ON!!! Plasma has bad accessibility! We are using modifier + mouse button for manipulating windows with kwin for years and no one has any problems with it!! You are fixing imagined problems.
People learn. Those who do not learn are stupid people. If you make an interface for stupid people, universe will just create even more stupid people. Again a non-issue.
Most people move windows using the title bar, the ALT thing (tough really useful) is unknown for most people as there's no way to learn it other than someone telling you. Plasma widgets don't have titlebar so something similar appears.
> And what about millions of old KDE users who discovered keyboard, they should switch to some other DE?
KDE3 users have the same problem that the plasma team has solved if they try to see the context menu of a full taskbar. They will learn the new way and loose nothing, as THERE'S NO OLD WAY that KDE3 users have learnt.
>It's funny. You are so stubborn :-) It's not bad idea. Using modifiers is unix way of doing stuff, kwin's way of doing stuff. I switched from windows to kde because of it and now you are bringing windows way to kde. That's sad.
> Why you have to be such a dictator? Why not ask on kde-devel list what do the others think about this?
From the very beginning you have just complained without any education and underestimating others work, and you pretend them to listen to you?
Nah, modifiers. That'd be really a geeks escape. Rather have something to click on than an obscure key to press.
The toolbox is really a well established paradigm throughout all of plasma. People learn quickly that if they want configuration options, they have to look for that orange something on the screen and click it.
That's even better than the KDE3 way of merging panel menu options into applet menu options. While it admittedly worked, it was rather difficult to operate.
@vedranf, instead of calling poor aaron a stubborn dictator, why not propose your idea on plasma-devel yourself. I don't care, as long as you don't force me to remember a dozen or so modifier keys just to operate my desktop.
I think the cashew thing is a good approach. The only thing I think that misses is an icon that makes users remind it is a Toolbox, that is is related to configuration. The plasma icon itself doesn't do it well. The icon could be the plasma logo with a wrench beside it, for instance.
@vedranf:
You seem to be one of those people that "hate the cashew" and want to see it gone no matter how hard it takes.
@ ollupaC De La Pradera
> **SOME** combinations are simply reserved. How many combinations do you want to reserve?
How much is necessary.
>Most people move windows using the title bar, the ALT thing (tough really useful) is
unknown for most people as there's no way to learn it other than someone telling you.
And how would they know about titlebar? I know old people, I had to tell them about the titlebar also.
>Plasma widgets don't have titlebar so something similar appears.
Then add something similar, but note that it is possible to have windows without borders and titlebar with kwin. So add option to disable "something similar".
Why people that already use modifiers with windows can't use them with plasma?
>KDE3 users have the same problem that the plasma team has solved if they try to see the context menu of a full taskbar. They will learn the new way and loose nothing, as THERE'S NO OLD WAY that KDE3 users have learnt.
There are better ways to solve that problem.
>From the very beginning you have just complained without any education and underestimating others work, and you pretend them to listen to you?
I'm only trying to help. Nobody have to listen to me. My friends left kde for something else and I will too when my distro removes kde3. Thousands of them will.
@matze
>instead of calling poor aaron a stubborn dictator, why not propose your idea on plasma-devel yourself.
That's useless. Nothing will change in plasma without Aaron's blessing.
> I don't care, as long as you don't force me to remember a dozen or so modifier keys just to operate my desktop.
Nobody should force you. I just want they *add* a possibility to use keyboard, not to change anything. You wouldn't even notice any change.
@bisbilhoteiropinto
>You seem to be one of those people that "hate the cashew" and want to see it gone no matter how hard it takes.
Yes, I don't want having something clutter my desktop, something that I never use or need. I also don't use dolphin, but I have an option of not installing it.
OTOH, in windows I can't uninstall internet explorer - in plasma I cannot remove cashew => Windows sucks - plasma sucks. People go somewhere else.
Is there such a thing as a LONG right-click?
That is, eons ago, in Windows Commander ( Total Commander now) there was the same problem: one wants to have right-click selection and right-click menu, both together. It was solved, so that right-click select and long right click is menu.
@vedranf: "OTOH, in windows I can't uninstall internet explorer - in plasma I cannot remove cashew => Windows sucks - plasma sucks. People go somewhere else."
So Pleeeease go somewhere else! Use Gnome, Windows, MacOSX, fluxbox, terminal...So many options... If plasma sucks that much to you... why use it? Choose another DE then...
No project will ever fulfill everyone's wishes. Otherwise we would make a car like this:
http://www.higroup.com/i/news/homer_dreamcar.gif
>>"My friends left kde for something else and I will too when my distro removes kde3. Thousands of them will."
Another thousand will use KDE 4 and love it. I myself presented KDE 4.2 to some friends, they found it neat and some of them loved the cashew.
After some thinking I arrived to the conclusion that the handler's approche is the best one. Maybe there should be no options to access setting if the panel controller is not enabled because the current situation is quite confusing.
For me, the best option would be to have hidden handlers which appear on hover like the old kicker, but only if the widgets are unlocked. That handler would provide access to the plasmoid settings.
the funniest thing here is that the original blog post was about making right-click work better.
touchscreens have no right-click.
it follows that vendranf is a troll.
shoo, troll! go back under you bridge :P
Interestingly many people project problems they have with a certain detail onto a large group, claiming that if they find something unbearable, everybody else will feel the same.
But I have quite the feeling that vedranf's quarrel is not just about this tiny detail of accessing the panel options through all the applet haze, that is just the tip of the eisberg. I think he's deeply unhappy with where KDE is going with plasma and he singles out aaron as the one to blame. Oh well...
Really, it's not a technical discussion to have here.
What if the right-click menus also inherited the right-click menus of whetever it is a part of? So for instance right-clicking on a taskbar icon will also show the right-click menu for the taskbar plasmoid. The right-click menu on an item in the system tray also has the right-click menu for the system tray as a whole (this may be harder to do with the limitations of the spec). This could either be directly in the right-click menu or in a sub-menu. The right-click menu for a plasmoid already inherits the right-click menu for the containment it is in, (either the "panel options" sub-menu or "desktop options" sub-menu). So for instance all taskbar entries could have a "taskbar options" sub-menu that lets you access the taskbar options, and that in turn would have a "panel options" sub-menu (if the taskbar is in the panel).
@todd
I think thats a good idea but what if a applet does something totally diffrent with right click and not showing a context menu at all
If that happens you can always just use the cashew. This would only apply to items that have multiple levels of right-click, like the taskbar or system tray. I am not proposing removing the more general cashew right-click, this is a special case that only applies to a handful of widgets.
Yes I think that would be a good idea. Plasma could just provide a QMenu object that a applet Programmer could hang in his Context Menu.
@chani
Just tell me why do I have cashew top left? I have right click, everything is accessible through it, so why is it there?
Yes, I'm a troll. Look here, more trolling:
http://i42.tinypic.com/4u9f5t.png
I did that in photoshop just to make kde look bad.
@matze
Yes I'm unhappy with where kde is going. Not only with kde, but with overall software quality. We can move from the tip down the iceberg to the Qt. For example in 4.0 they fucked up fonts[1]. In 3.5 years they didn't fix that essential problem but focused on bling-bling stuff. KDE follows the same pattern. Things are so bad that it became funny. :-) but that story for another blog post.
[1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=448555
@vedranf: Yes I'm unhappy with where kde is going. Not only with kde, but with overall software quality.
So why don't you become a software developer and save our lives from such a terrible scenario where software quality is lower and lower each day?
You could create VDE (vedranf desktop environment), with excellent font quality and rendering, with a marvelous desktop with no cashews but just modifiers+right clicks everywhere and even create Vt framework!
Please do it for us! You know, F/OSS is so full of dictators developers nowadays... you would change the world!
@ bisbilhoteiropinto
That would take time. But if I create it I know you would like it. How do I know that? Well, kid, you are a fanboy, you'll like everything, no matter how crappy it is.
@vedrant:That would take time. But if I create it I know you would like it.
Yes I really would love it! You would save my life and others from bad software.
I'll wait, I am patient... I know developing is a task that takes time. That's why I do not underestimate the work of others, mainly if they do it for free , for fun, for pleasure and have no obligation to fulfill "my personal" wishes.
>>How do I know that? Well, kid, you are a fanboy, you'll like everything, no matter how crappy it is.
You know that because you have a crystal ball and is capable to read other's mind...
And I would love your software, as I said.. I know you are the best, VDE would not be crappy.. :D
Post a Comment